Do any of you have any insight about the relationship between Saul and David in First Samuel chapters 16 and 17?
Why would Saul be friendly with David in Chapter 16, but then not recognize him in Chapter 17? If any of you have any insight, I’d like for you to comment.
1 Samuel 16:21-23 21 So David came to Saul and stood before him. And he loved him greatly, and he became his armorbearer. 22 Then Saul sent to Jesse, saying, “Please let David stand before me, for he has found favor in my sight.” 23 And so it was, whenever the spirit from God was upon Saul, that David would take a harp and play it with his hand. Then Saul would become refreshed and well, and the distressing spirit would depart from him.
I blogged about David and Goliath here. I recently received the following comment/question from Rita regarding that blog post (I’ve paraphrased and expanded Rita’s question):
I am in the middle of the Beth Moore bible study and have a question about the David and Goliath story. Before David killed Goliath (1 Samuel Chapter 16)he was in the service of Saul as his harp player. However, after David kills Goliath in the next chapter (1 Samuel Chapter 17) Saul asks who David is and Saul doesn’t recognize him. Any thoughts? This has troubled me while studying the life of David. Your Sister in Christ – Rita
Rita, I’ve left my response below. Not sure if this is helpful or not.
Hi, Rita. I’m glad that you stopped by Cecelia’s Christian Fiction Blog and commented. I tried to email you privately, but, your profile is marked private so I can’t see your email information. The only insight I can give regarding your question is, perhaps, although David was Saul’s harp player, perhaps some time had passed between the chapters and he no longer recognized David because he’d gotten older? Or, perhaps, he didn’t recognize David when he’d killed Goliath because he looked different – he may have looked brave and strong holding that decapitated head? I’m unfamiliar with Biblical history so, I’m not sure how often harp players interact with their superiors. I know David played the harp whenever the distressing spirits came upon Saul, to help him to feel better, and that Saul loved David, initially. So, it is puzzling as to why Saul didn’t recognize David after he killed Goliath. Your question is a valid one, I’m just afraid that I can’t provide much insight, but wish that I could. I’ll post your question on a blog entry to see if any of my blog readers know the answer.
For more insight into the relationship between Saul and David, as well as other little-known Bible facts, I encourage you to read Molly Noble Bull’s recent article on Writers’ Rest Blog. Stop by and leave a comment.
Interesting question, Cecelia. I knew David played the harp for Saul. But I didn’t know Saul didn’t recognize David after David killed Goliath. I will need to read that again.
I do remember my pastor saying that apparently the Holy Spirit came and went before Jesus died on the cross to pay for our sins and that at one time the Holy Spirit dwelled in Saul. Then Saul sinned, and the Holy Spirit left him. Apparently, hearing David play the harp comforted Saul after his loss.
But I always thought Saul became jealous of David after David became a part of Saul’s army and that is why he turned against him. The people liked David better because David was a better soldier in battle. I think the scripture goes something like this. [Saul kills his thousand and David kills his ten thousand.]
Also, I imagine Saul was not too pleased that Samuel anointed David King of Israel when David was a boy tending his father’s sheep because at the time Saul was King of Israel.
Knowing that at one time the Holy Spirit left believers causes me to pray a prayer l learned as a child while still in the Episcopal church. [Take not thy Holy Spirit from me.]
Molly, you are correct about the scripture and about Saul’s jealousy toward David. He even tried to kill David, if I recall correctly. I also remember the song that they sang once David killed Goliath and that, apparently, is when Saul’s jealousy towards David began.
Your answer was a good one, Cecelia.
Here are a few clips from different commentaries on 17:55.
Word Biblical Commentary:
David was so insignificant that neither Saul nor his top commander knew who he was.
The Bible Knowledge Commentary:
17:52-58. When the conflict was over, Saul inquired as to the identity of the young warrior and learned that he was David, son of Jesse (vv. 55, 58). Why could not Saul recognize David, who had already served him for some time as musician and armor-bearer? One answer is that Saul was not asking who David was but for the first time was curious about David’s family connections: Whose son is that young man? (v. 55; cf. v. 25) When David himself was interrogated he did not say, “I am David,” but only, I am the son of your servant Jesse of Bethlehem (v. 58). Another and perhaps better solution is that David’s previous service had been brief and intermittent and now several years had passed since Saul had last seen him. If, for example, David had been only 12 years old when he came as Saul’s musician and had stayed off and on for only a year or so, he might have been 17 or 18 by the time of the Philistine episode and no longer recognizable to Saul. This view is strengthened by the fact that after David joined himself to Saul this time, the king “did not let him return to his father’s house” (v. 15; 18:2). This implies that David’s previous tenure had not been permanent. In any event, one need not posit two sources for chapters 16 and 17 or view the accounts as irreconcilable.
The Open Bible Commentary
That David was not recognized by Saul and Abner could be accounted for by a lapse of time between the youth’s appearance as a musician in Saul’s court and the Philistine war described here.
Robin Lee Hatcher
Cecelia and I both write for another blog called Wrtiers Rest. Please visit us there and read my new article titled “Unknown Bible Facts.” It’s about David, Saul and the Children of Israel.
Here is the address.
http://writersrest.blogspot.com
Love,
Molly
http://www.mollynoblebull.com
Yes, please visit Writers’ Rest and read Molly’s insightful article. She gives further insight into the relationship between Saul and David:
http://writersrest.blogspot.com/2011/03/little-known-bible-facts.html
I didn’t know but according to the notes in Unger’s Bible Handbook on page 149 it says this:
Saul’s evil spirit. Modern psychiatry has suggested that Saul may have suffered from a severe mental illness such as schizophrenia, thus accounting for his erratic behavior. This would in now way lessen his responsibility , since the illness came as the result of God’s judgment on Saul’s unbelief.
Here is another explanation from a website I found:
http://www.biblequery.org/1sam.htm#1sam 16
Q: In 1 Sam 17:55-58, why did Saul apparently ask who David was?
A: Saul did not ask who David was. Saul asked who David’s parents were. In David’s answer in 1 Samuel 17:58, David did not give his name, because that was not what Saul asked. David said that he was the son of Jesse the Bethlehemite. See also the next question.
Q: In 1 Sam 17:55-58, why did Saul not recognize David, since David was Saul’s armor bearer in 1 Sam 16:21-23?
A: There are four possible answers.
Saul had never met David: David might have been the armor bearer before he killed Goliath. There is no necessity that 1 Samuel 16:21-23 and 1 Samuel 17:4 are in chronological order. See the discussion on 1 Samuel 16:21-23 for more info on this possibility.
Saul knew only David’s face and name: David was an armor bearer before killing Goliath, but Saul knew little else about this brave youth and wanted to know more. If the slayer of Goliath would marry Saul’s daughter, Saul wanted to know more about his prospective son-in-law.
Saul forgot: Being an armor bearer was a great honor for a young teen, and perhaps Saul had a number of boys be armor bearer at least once. Saul might not have remembered David at all.
Saul knew David well: As the answer to the previous question shows, Saul did not ask who David was. Saul asked who David’s parents were. In Saul promised his daughter’s hand in marriage to the slayer of Goliath in 1 Samuel 17:25, Saul was interested in the parentage of his future son-in-law. Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties p.175 favors this view. When Critics Ask p.164 also adds that Saul might have wondered if David’s father had any more brave sons.
Hard Sayings of the Bible p.213-214 mentions the first three views, but it favors the second view.
The thoughts I had on it, was he was king, he saw alot of people, had alot of servants. David was a young man when he played the harp for him, went back home and when he came back, he may have grown or changed in appearance. Saul also had a mental illness where Evil spirits plagued him, so I am sure that effected his memory as well.
Here is another explanation from a website I found:
http://www.biblequery.org/1sam.htm#1sam 16
Q: In 1 Sam 17:55-58, why did Saul apparently ask who David was?
A: Saul did not ask who David was. Saul asked who David’s parents were. In David’s answer in 1 Samuel 17:58, David did not give his name, because that was not what Saul asked. David said that he was the son of Jesse the Bethlehemite. See also the next question.
Q: In 1 Sam 17:55-58, why did Saul recognize David, since David was Saul’s armor bearer in 1 Sam 16:21-23?
A: There are four possible answers.
Saul had never met David: David might have been the armor bearer before he killed Goliath. There is no necessity that 1 Samuel 16:21-23 and 1 Samuel 17:4 are in chronological order. See the discussion on 1 Samuel 16:21-23 for more info on this possibility.
Saul knew only David’s face and name: David was an armor bearer before killing Goliath, but Saul knew little else about this brave youth and wanted to know more. If the slayer of Goliath would marry Saul’s daughter, Saul wanted to know more about his prospective son-in-law.
Saul forgot: Being an armor bearer was a great honor for a young teen, and perhaps Saul had a number of boys be armor bearer at least once. Saul might not have remembered David at all.
Saul knew David well: As the answer to the previous question shows, Saul did not ask who David was. Saul asked who David’s parents were. In Saul promised his daughter’s hand in marriage to the slayer of Goliath in 1 Samuel 17:25, Saul was interested in the parentage of his future son-in-law. Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties p.175 favors this view. When Critics Ask p.164 also adds that Saul might have wondered if David’s father had any more brave sons.
Hard Sayings of the Bible p.213-214 mentions the first three views, but it favors the second view.
NOTE, THIS COMMENT HAS BEEN BROKEN UP INTO TWO PARTS SINCE IT IS SO LONG…SEE BOTH RESPONSES BY PASTOR DAVID..
Dear Cecilia
Sorry I have not been back before, its been busy here as we had a Conference with a brother from Oklahoma.
We have now given this a lot of thought and prayed that the Lord downloads the answers and here they are:
Thanks for getting in touch with me. I have been busy over the past few days, so sorry it has taken me a while to get back to you.
The question you have asked is a very valid one and certainly not an easy section to answer. However having read it through this morning with Christine my wife (who is a prophetic visionary) we have discovered many gems and reasons why this section seems to contradict itself.
We feel the answer is in the first few verses;
1 The LORD said to Samuel, “How long will you mourn for Saul, since I have rejected him as king over Israel? Fill your horn with oil and be on your way; I am sending you to Jesse of Bethlehem. I have chosen one of his sons to be king.”
Verses 14 Onwards;
14 Now the Spirit of the LORD had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him.
My Comments;
The Lords anointing had been removed from Saul as he was disobedient, unrepentant and haughty, so the Lord allowed an evil spirit to torment him.
15 Saul’s attendants said to him, “See, an evil spirit from God is tormenting you. 16 Let our lord command his servants here to search for someone who can play the lyre. He will play when the evil spirit from God comes on you, and you will feel better.”
17 So Saul said to his attendants, “Find someone who plays well and bring him to me.”
18 One of the servants answered, “I have seen a son of Jesse of Bethlehem who knows how to play the lyre. He is a brave man and a warrior. He speaks well and is a fine-looking man. And the LORD is with him.”
19 Then Saul sent messengers to Jesse and said, “Send me your son David, who is with the sheep.” 20 So Jesse took a donkey loaded with bread, a skin of wine and a young goat and sent them with his son David to Saul.
21 David came to Saul and entered his service. Saul liked him very much, and David became one of his armor-bearers. 22 Then Saul sent word to Jesse, saying, “Allow David to remain in my service, for I am pleased with him.”
23 Whenever the spirit from God came on Saul, David would take up his lyre and play. Then relief would come to Saul; he would feel better, and the evil spirit would leave him.
My Comments;
The Lord was beginning to position David into the Royal household by using his gift as a musician and singing Psalms to Saul to comfort him. The Psalms have comforted Millions of people even though they may not even be in Gods favour. Saul did not see David as anything but a musician and young man who could give him comfort. However we also read in verse 18 that a MAN had identified David as a handsome young man, as a musician and a BRAVE MAN AND WARRIOR but Saul only heard that he was a fine string player (people often only hear what they want to hear). Many of us are like that, we only see a person in one way and yet that person may have many talents. We also need to remember that he was troubled by a DEMON and his memory and other faculties would be affected greatly. Saul liked him very much because he soothed his Demon possessed Soul. That was who David was to Saul ‘a Minstrel ‘ who soothed him and pampered him. Notice verse 10 of chapter 18 tells us the the evil spirit prophesied over Saul and that is when he knew who David really was. The enemy can tell others who we really are, just as a Seer even today can see false shepherds and wolves in sheep’s clothing.
There is so much in these chapters and we are very grateful to the Lord that he has used you to bring this to our attention.
Even in verse 58 of chapter 17, Saul asked David ‘who’s son are you, young man’? This would imply that he had only known David as a young shepherd boy who played music, but now he really wanted to know his Father and all about him. There is another amazing lesson in this account, in that David rescued a lamb that was in the teethe of a wild LION and then he killed the Lion by getting hold of his beard and striking it with his bare hands…….how many men could do that? It was obvious that the Holy Spirit and anointing was all over David even then.
That is why Jesus used the expression of a real shepherd who would lay down his life for the sheep. The hireling runs away when faced with danger.
So much to learn from these amazing verses, but we need to ask the Holy Spirit to fill us up and then look at it by means of his wisdom and understanding.
6 When the men were returning home after David had killed the Philistine, the women came out from all the towns of Israel to meet King Saul with singing and dancing, with joyful songs and with timbrels and lyres. 7 As they danced, they sang:
“Saul has slain his thousands,
and David his tens of thousands.”
8 Saul was very angry; this refrain displeased him greatly. “They have credited David with tens of thousands,” he thought, “but me with only thousands. What more can he get but the kingdom?” 9 And from that time on Saul kept a close eye on David.
10 The next day an evil spirit from God came forcefully on Saul. He was prophesying in his house, while David was playing the lyre, as he usually did. Saul had a spear in his hand 11 and he hurled it, saying to himself, “I’ll pin David to the wall.” But David eluded him twice.
Many blessings
David
Cecelia,
I didn’t get to post yesterday, but I did read through things. One of the commentaries I have on my computer Bible program says that it’s possible these verses are out of order, chronologically. We know that the Bible wasn’t written (completely) in chronological order, so one speculation is that these verses are out of order.
I don’t know that I believe that…I really think one of the other speculations is more likely correct.
Cecelia,
My understanding of the Saul and David relationship is that God removed Saul’s annointing. He knows it and he realized David is God’s new annointed choice for king. That makes him angry. Also, “evil spirits” come upon Saul that make him act crazy. Of course, most of the time, the only peace he gets from those spirits is to have David play for him! It’s hard for us to understand how one day he loves him and the next day is throwing a spear at his head, but after some study, those are the reasons he waxes and wanes! Hope this helps.
In Him,
Mary Moore
That’s a great question …I seem to remember it had to do with the evil spirit blinding him to recognizing David?
It could be that Saul had hundreds of people ministering to him. David came into his radar for a moment, he liked him and didn’t think too much more of him until he saw him again.
Terri L. Gillespie
http://www.terrigillespie.com